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Nushen Baihe's avatar

We’ve heard such a romanticised version of Sparta and Spartans over time that we miss that they’re like any other military nation - doomed by their own insecurities and frailties. Their moment in history is defined by one battle at Thermopylae (justifiably perhaps) while their neighbours and fellow Greeks from the north in Athens claimed their rightful seat in history as the dominant representatives of Greek civilisation via being more progressive, inclusive and assimilative.

Everything comes to an end however when faced with the might of time!

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Pablo's avatar

Didn’t Spartans also declare war on helots every year to keep them cowed and permanently terrified?

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A Life in the Classics's avatar

Yes they did!

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Rob's History Notes's avatar

Thanks for another informative piece for those of us who like ancient history but do not specialize in it.

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Jordan Nuttall's avatar

Greetings, friend. I’ve been on Substack for a few weeks now, and I’ve really enjoyed seeing your posts appear in my feed.

I thought I’d take a moment to say hello, and share one of my recent pieces, exploring an empire you’ve likely never heard of before:

https://open.substack.com/pub/jordannuttall/p/the-origins-of-tartaria?r=4f55i2&utm_medium=ios

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Anecdotage's avatar

There's a host of curiosities here surrounding the departure of the Messenians from Ithome. There's limits on how many people Athens could realistically transport on short notice, and limits on the size of the population of Naupactus, based on what its people were able to accomplish during the Peloponnesian War. We don't really know how many Messenians went to Ithome in the first place And how many escaped or were killed.

We also appear to know absolutely nothing about how the locals reacted to the establishment of a colony at Naupactus, and in particular how Corinth reacted. You'd think they'd retaliate against Athens politically or economically, but I'm unaware of any action by Corinth in response to Athens' hostile act.

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A Life in the Classics's avatar

Great points! You’re right that we know nothing about numbers, although we know there must have been enough Messenians at Ithome to repel Spartan attacks over a long period (although that did I not necessarily need a huge army), and that Athens’ fleet could have included large merchant/transport ships as well as triremes. Corinth certainly was not happy with the development of Naupactus, and Thucydides describes its attempts to conquer the modest fleet at Naupactus in the early years of the Peloponnesian War (Phormio’s famous campaign). Indeed, Corinth was the key ally driving Sparta to declare war against Athens, and the establishment of the Messenians at Naupactus may have been part of that. So great points!

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Anecdotage's avatar

Yes, you’d need to hire merchant ships and/or have the kind of modified trireme horse transports that were used in Sicily and I don't know what the availability of those was circa 464. On the other side of the coin, It would notionally at least have taken months for a siege so there would be time for the Ekklesia to debate this and make some arrangements. This would then be a political statement of Athenian attitudes towards Sparta, given the substantial unexpected cost. Or else what we have is some kind of exaggeration, and Athenian ships that were circling the Peloponnese picked up a few Messenians, but did not transport everyone.

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